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CNN —
Political strategist James Carville was one of the first top Democrats to loudly and persistently urge President Joe Biden to withdraw from the presidential race earlier this year.
Long before the CNN presidential debate that opened the much-anticipated floodgates and ultimately caused Biden to change his mind, Carville began speaking with uncensored Louisiana flair, changing his phrases. It was a controversial discussion at the time.
Carville said Biden’s resignation was akin to having an infected wisdom tooth removed. It doesn’t feel great, but you will feel better the next day.
CNN’s new documentary “Carville: It’s All About Winning, Stupid” focuses on the strategists’ early pressure on Biden and connects it to his long career. It also examines his famously bipartisan marriage to Mary Matalin, a top strategist for then-President George H.W. She later served as a top aide to Vice President Dick Cheney in the George W. Bush administration. According to the film, her decision to work for Cheney caused dissatisfaction in her marriage.
Watch “Carville: It’s All About Winning, Fool” on CNN on Saturdays at 7pm ET.
I spoke with Mr. Carville recently in New York, shortly after Mr. Cheney and his daughter Liz, a former Wyoming congressman, endorsed Democratic Vice President Kamala Harris in this year’s election.
I asked Carville about the strangeness of being on the same side as his former opponent, and how the Democratic Party has changed before his eyes. Excerpts of the conversation, edited for clarity, follow.
Women support Harris and men support Trump, so the entire country is in a kind of Carville-Matalin relationship.
WOLF: You have this famous bipartisan relationship. One of the stories of this current campaign is that the latest polls show that a majority of women support Harris, while a majority of men actually support former President Donald Trump. . I mean, there must be a lot of people in relationships like yours, right?
Carville: Usually people meet and fall in love…often they’re in the same industry. In fact, when we got married, someone said something kind of clever. They said it would have been truly amazing if either of them had married an Idaho tree surgeon. you know? So if you work in television, you’re more likely to run into someone from MSNBC or CBS than you are a roofer.
If you think about it, we just happen to be the most famous example of this.
Wolf: At the Democratic National Convention, there was a unified message from all the major speakers: not to offend the other side. They clearly had a point. Perhaps it’s this idea of ”politics of joy”. Don’t offend your neighbors, talk to people. Is it a viable strategy? Are you talking to the people on the other side?
Carville: That’s kind of interesting. Colin Allred, the current Democratic Senate candidate in Texas, whom I met in Dallas as a Dallas Democrat when he was running for Congress, said: “James, do you have any advice?”
I said, “Be kind to others.”
I wouldn’t call it the politics of joy, but it just seems like no one in politics is kind anymore. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I think there’s some value to it.
WOLF: But sometimes what you say – I don’t mean to be mean, but for example, in the movie, you’re shown actively trying to push Biden out of the race.
Carville: I wasn’t mean to him. It’s not that I wasn’t kind to him. I just thought he was too old.
I wasn’t being rude. Some may say that President Trump is simply being blatantly disrespectful. But regarding President Biden, I said this. I don’t think he is a strong candidate for the general election. ”
But it does mean you can have an opinion. It depends on how you say it. I sometimes think that the number of people yelling at flight attendants in public places and the number of people getting irritated with hotel front desks are increasing. You know, in countries where the fuse is short, maybe some of it is due to politics, some of it is due to the pandemic, I don’t know.
WOLF: There’s a scene in the movie where you look back at the Bush administration and Mary was working with Cheney, and you seem so far removed. We’re now in a situation where Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney both support Harris. Is it a strange full-circle moment? Have you ever thought about it?
Carville: I’ve always liked Vice President Cheney. Mary ended up working on his staff, and we ended up going to Wyoming for Christmas. Of course I didn’t really align with him politically, but I found him to be a great conversationalist.
And I always liked Liz. I mean, she was like Mary’s sister or something. Mary is much older than Liz. And we went to the Naval Observatory (Vice President’s Office), just like senior officials and their spouses go to events in Washington.
At least from my perspective, actually working for Cheney eased some of the pain in her heart. I was always proud of what she did.
Wolf: But do you feel like you’re in a weird cycle now, working with the Cheneys?
Carville: Well, what I’m saying is, I think the United States is really in danger.
Like in World War II, yeah, we were working with the Soviet Union… During the war, I mean, a lot of the old Quayle/Bush people, like Bill Kristol and the Bulwark people, and very much We are working closely with. Tim Miller, Charlie Sykes. This morning I received a call from Stuart Stevens. I have to call him back. Steve Schmidt.
So you’re not looking around and asking questions. We have to win this and hopefully we can get back into the fight. But now we don’t have that luxury.
Wolfe: At one point in the film, we talk about the 1959 campaign, and I was thinking about how the political map had changed during that time. You worked for Bill Clinton. He twice won Arkansas and Louisiana, states that are out of reach for Democrats today. The party has changed a lot. Does it change depending on the party?
Carville: That’s an interesting question. As the film makes clear, my origins as a Democrat were clearly racially oriented… had. All in all, I still think it’s the place to party.
you’re right. We are less blue collar and more educated. I think at times I was somewhat critical of the educated classes and their messages and their language. But I think all Democrats share the view that inclusion is a good thing.
I don’t know if the general principles of what it means to be a Democrat have actually changed.
I want to be part of a party that wants to get rid of the harsh aspects of capitalism. I think capitalism can eventually become quite greedy. That’s where you have to come in and soften it up a little bit. Some people can do it very well. Many people can be seriously injured.
Wolf: What is your take on the current political climate? Harris is leading in some national polls…
Carville: One thing I’ve learned over my years in politics is that if you look hard enough, you can find poll questions that say whatever you want.
Let me show you the poll with Mr. Harris. I’ll show you a poll showing Trump in the lead. I don’t blame people who do that. they have to do something…
There’s something called statistical noise, and it happens all the time. I can’t say I don’t look at the polls…I don’t really look at them because that’s kind of bullshit. Unless something special happens again…I don’t think about it too much.
Wolf: What are you thinking about all day, every day, for the next 40 days?
Carville: How can she position herself so that she can draw a good contrast? So let me give it to you — this is something I’ve been thinking about, and my I’m trying to refine my thoughts…
Because people always say, “James, is it really ‘economics, idiot’?” And as for the economy, some people think it was inflation, and others say, well, normal people are fine.
I think she has a good framework for her message because basically, President Trump is saying this. This country is completely in the toilet and we have to try something different. ”
I don’t think most people are there.
What he allowed her to do was say, “You don’t think the economy is very good, but I think it’s pretty good.” It is wrong to say that it is not very good, I will try to convince you that it is quite good. ”It’s hard to show that to someone in real life.
but.
He says you have nothing to lose. In fact, most people have jobs. Most people have a feeling that “next year will be okay.” Most people are offered other jobs. Many people have savings accounts. And they say, “Well, I had $20,000 and now I’ve got $22,000. I don’t want to lose both of them.”
So he gave you a framework where I no longer have to convince you that the economy is good, but he’s trying to convince you that you have nothing to lose. – And I don’t think you believe it.
Wolf: The crux of the film is that you pressure Biden to drop out of the race. Harris’ campaign has been underway for several months, and there is only one month left until Election Day. How are you feeling?
Carville: To say I feel better is an understatement. I tell people that if they had an infected wisdom tooth and had their dentist remove it, they would feel much better. You’ll probably never feel better than if you never had teeth to begin with. But tell me, when you get your wisdom teeth out, the next day you feel like you’re on top of the world compared to what you felt before, right?
But I do. I think this country had a negative view of President Biden and his age. And it never seemed like they were ready to change because it was pretty fixed.
Wolf: Is there anything else you would like to say about this movie?
Carville: The whole profession of politics has become so stigmatized, but it’s just not people like me who ran campaigns and candidates. It’s people who work for the government, work for NGOs, do volunteer work, and write articles about it. Please do the 6 o’clock news.
I hope this movie makes people feel better. Because if we just keep telling people how bad business politics is and how bad some people are in this movie, then you wonder why we can’t get good people into politics. Sho. Because they are listening. For all the shit they were told…
Wolf: So what do you say to people graduating from college? Why should they get involved in politics?
Carville: I hope they watch the movie and say, “This is so funny. They didn’t look like they were wearing hair shirts the whole time. They looked like they were having fun, laughing and high-fiving each other,” and hopefully they said, “They don’t seem like particularly disreputable people to me.”
Many had very negative opinions about politics, the political process, and the people involved in politics. And my hope is that this movie will make people reevaluate that.
